"...material in violation of any Country (...) is prohibited"?


#1

Hello.

“Customer may only use DreamHost Web Hosting’s Server for lawful purpose. Transmission of any material in violation of any Country, Federal, State or Local regulation is prohibited."

What means this?

Is this the same “sh*it” like:
“under the laws of any sovereign state”.
So also including China, Iran, North Korea, etc…

A Chinese may not criticize his government?
A German person may not report perversion of justice in the German judiciary?
A Iranian may not criticize the mullahs?
A German can not make a website where citizens report about police officers etc. with his real name?
A Russian makes a website about homosexuality (illegal in Russia).

Etc. …

DreamHost is considered a “Free Speech Hoster”.
This contradicts this.
On a website I found “…their terms and conditions allow for any content that is legal in the United States to be hosted…” for Dreamhost.
I can do everything what is legal in USA?

A U.S. citizen may make websites, that should not make a Russian, Chinese, German, Iranian?
A U.S. Citizen could make a website about homosexuality in Russian language for Russian citizens, and a Russian citizen can not do the same?
Or a U.S. Citizen could make a website for criticize german civil servants in german language for german citizens, and a german citizen can not do the same?

For example, what is with the ex U.S. website “RateMyCop”?
U.S. citizien (about U.S. and Chinese police officers) yes, chinese citizen (about Chinese police officers) no?

A webhoster should pay attention, only to the law at the server location.

Thanks…


#2

I can understand how the meaning of that can be confusing.You can think of the statement as being our way of covering the circumstance where, due to treaty or international court action, we might be legally compelled to act to remove or prohibit content based on a law other than the U.S. law that would normally apply. As a practical matter, and so far to date, if the content is legal in the United States, and in California, it is ok to publish it on DreamHost.

We do belief very strongly in “Freedom of speech”, and routinely reject requests for removal of content based on laws other than those under which we do business, but there could be a case where we could be compelled to remove content as a result of it violating some foreign law, as I described above regarding treaties or international courts.

As of this date, we have had no such circumstance, but it is always possible that could happen, so our Terms of Service recognizes that possibility when it says, “Any Country”.


#3

Would, for example, Rottenneighbor.com and RateMyCop.com (it seems, both voluntarily
closed) at Dreamhost allowed?

On Rottenneighbor and similar sites (currently I dont know a site like RN), everybody could write anonymously that you “love” children or animals (or more direct), or you make meth/crack, or simple insults other persons with words.

Then what happens in the U.S.?

On RateMyCop (or a similar site), everybody could report his experience with a police officer, or a jobcenter clerk (other “target group”) etc… Also with reputation damaging. Maybe with personal data. Also private data, telphone numbers and addresses.

Anything could happen.

But here also for the forum, examples of German laws (maybe someone, also guests, will tell whether there are similar laws in the United States):

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Section 90: “Defamation of the President of the Federation”:

Denigrating/insult etc. of the German President (eg on a blog, website etc.)

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Section 90a: “Defamation of the state and its symbols”:

Denigrating/insult/burn your own flag, sing a mocking version of the German
Anthem, etc. (eg, on YouTube, etc.).
This too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/49261409@N03/4516403030/

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Section 90b: “Anti-constitutional defamation of constitutional organs”:

Denigrating/insult/slander etc. of “upper house of the German parliament”,
“Lower House of German Parliament”, “Constitutional Court Judges,” “Federal
Government”, “Federal Constitutional Court” etc…

Up to five years of prison or a fine. More than the notorious turkish
pendant.

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Section 103: “Defamation of organs and representatives of foreign states”:

i Whosoever insults a foreign head of state, or, with respect to his
position, a member of a foreign government who is in Germany in his official
capacity, or a head of a foreign diplomatic mission who is accredited in the
Federal territory shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years
or a fine, in case of a slanderous insult to imprisonment from three months
to five years.

(2) If the offence was committed publicly, in a meeting or through the
dissemination of written materials (section 11(3)) Section 200 shall apply.
An application for publication of the conviction may also be filed by the
prosecution service.[/i]

(If you [U.S. citizen] are in Germany, and insult your (U.S.) president,
theoretically you can be punished for it)
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Section 104: “Violation of flags and state symbols of foreign states”:

i Whosoever removes, destroys, damages, renders unrecognisable or insults
by mischief a flag of a foreign state, which is displayed according to legal
provisions or recognised custom, or a state symbol of such a state which has
been publicly installed by a recognised mission of such state, shall be
liable to imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine.

(2) The attempt shall be punishable.[/i]

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Section 130a: “Attempting to cause the commission of offences by means of
publication”:

i Whosoever disseminates, publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise
makes accessible written material (section 11(3)) capable of serving as an
instruction for an unlawful act named in section 126(1) and intended by its
content to encourage or cause others to commit such an act, shall be liable
to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Whosoever

  1. disseminates, publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes
    accessible written material (section 11(3)) capable of serving as an
    instruction for an unlawful act named in section 126(1); or

  2. gives instructions for an unlawful act named in section 126(1) publicly
    or in a meeting,

in order to encourage or cause others to commit such an act, shall incur the
same penalty.

(3) Section 86(3) shall apply mutatis mutandis.[/i]

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Section 131: “Dissemination of depictions of (note: fictive) violence”:

i Whosoever

  1. disseminates written materials (section 11(3)), which describe cruel or
    otherwise inhuman acts of violence against humans or humanoid beings in a
    manner expressing glorification or which downplays such acts of violence or
    which represents the cruel or inhuman aspects of the event in a manner which
    violates human dignity;

  2. publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;

  3. offers, supplies or makes them accessible to a person under eighteen
    years; or

  4. produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends,
    undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained
    from them within the meaning of numbers 1 to 3 above or facilitate such use
    by another,

shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine.

(2) Whosoever disseminates a presentation with a content indicated in
subsection (1) above by radio, media services, or telecommunication services
shall incur the same penalty.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) above shall not apply in cases of reporting
about current or historical events.

(4) Subsection (1) No 3 above shall not apply if the person authorised to
care for another person acts; this shall not apply if that person grossly
neglects his duty of education by offering, giving, or making them
accessible.[/i]

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Section 166: “Defamation of religions, religious and ideological
associations”:

i Whosoever publicly or through dissemination of written materials
(section 11(3)) defames the religion or ideology of others in a manner that
is capable of disturbing the public peace, shall be liable to imprisonment
not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Whosoever publicly or through dissemination of written materials
(section 11(3)) defames a church or other religious or ideological
association within Germany, or their institutions or customs in a manner
that is capable of disturbing the public peace, shall incur the same
penalty.[/i]

(Also called as “Blasphemy paragraph”)
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185 to 189 plus 192 are criticized by the OSCE (Organization for Security
and Co-operation in Europe):
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Section 185: “Insult”:

An insult shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one year or a
fine and, if the insult is committed by means of an assault, with
imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine.

The Baltimore Sun:


Slaw (Canada’s online legal magazine):
http://www.slaw.ca/2011/02/03/insults-in-germany-are-offences/
(For example, “asshole”, “middle finger” (eg in traffic), “Silly Cow” (eg to
a meter maid etc.) etc.)
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Section 186: “Defamation” / “Malicious Gossip”:

Whosoever asserts or disseminates a fact related to another person which may
defame him or negatively affect public opinion about him, shall, unless this
fact can be proven to be true, be liable to imprisonment not exceeding one
year or a fine and, if the offence was committed publicly or through the
dissemination of written materials (section 11(3)), to imprisonment not
exceeding two years or a fine.

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Section 187: “Intentional defamation”:

Whosoever intentionally and knowingly asserts or disseminates an untrue fact
related to another person, which may defame him or negatively affect public
opinion about him or endanger his creditworthiness shall be liable to
imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine, and, if the act was
committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of written
materials (section 11(3)) to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a
fine.

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Section 188: “Defamation of persons in the political arena”:

i If an offence of defamation (section 186) is committed publicly, in a
meeting or through dissemination of written materials (section 11(3))
against a person involved in the popular political life based on the
position of that person in public life, and if the offence may make his
public activities substantially more difficult the penalty shall be
imprisonment from three months to five years.

(2) An intentional defamation (section 187) under the same conditions shall
entail imprisonment from six months to five years.[/i]

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Section 189: Violating the memory of the dead:

Whosoever defames the memory of a deceased person shall be liable to
imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine.

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Section 192: “Insult despite proof of truth”:

Proof of truth of the asserted or disseminated fact shall not exclude
punishment under section 185 if the insult results from the form of the
assertion or dissemination or the circumstances under which it was made.

(You tell the truth [have proof], and you’ll be punished for it)
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Section 201: “Violation of the privacy of the spoken word”:

i Whosoever unlawfully

  1. makes an audio recording of the privately spoken words of another; or

  2. uses, or makes a recording thus produced accessible to a third party,

shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Whosoever unlawfully

  1. overhears with an eavesdropping device the privately spoken words of
    another not intended for his attention; or

  2. publicly communicates, verbatim or the essential content of, the
    privately spoken words of another recorded pursuant to subsection (1) No 1
    above or overheard pursuant to subsection (2) No 1 above. shall incur the
    same penalty. The offence under the 1st sentence No 2 above, shall only
    entail liability if the public communication may interfere with the
    legitimate interests of another. It is not unlawful if the public
    communication was made for the purpose of safeguarding overriding public
    interests.

(3) Whosoever, as a public official or a person entrusted with special
public service functions violates the privacy of the spoken word
(subsections (1) and (2) above) shall be liable to imprisonment not
exceeding five years or a fine.

(4) The attempt shall be punishable.

(5) The audio recording media and eavesdropping devices which the principal
or secondary participant used may be subject to a deprivation order. Section
74a shall apply.[/i]

???: (in some U.S. states unlawfull, in some states not: What applies?)
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…By the way, stores Dreamhost PayPal data (the email) of a payment…?


#4

Honestly, this is all pretty complex stuff that is handled case by case.

“if the content is legal in the United States, and in California, it is ok to publish it on DreamHost”

That’s the answer you’re going to have to get for now. I am not a lawyer, our company one would have to verify the sites you mentioned. I do know that we hosted DrawMuhammedDay.com - see http://www.dreamhost.com/dreamscape/2010/05/21/yeah-about-that-downtime/ for that story - so in general, we’d probably host those sites too unless there’s something else about them that breaks CA state law. I suspect directions on how to make meth would be illegal, but again, not a lawyer :slight_smile:


#5

Maybe us citizens in this board want to say something about these laws.
Want to say something to similar U.S. laws. Or that they do not exist.

So I can also show Mohammed caricatures?
Can also start my own global “Draw Mohhamed competition”?
Although I risk knowingly to burden Dreamhost.
I had already thought about it. “It would not be impossible, that I would intentionally vex religious people”.
Eg. Show Mohhammed with a grilled suckling pig in front of his butcher’s shop (“two in one”)?

“is handled case by case.”

Tells Dreamhost in the bad “case” the name and address of the customer (to foreign government?)?
Then customers would be forced to use a false name and address o_0.
Many customers do not want a domain with Dreamhost. Separation of Domain hosting and web hosting, “is not an error”.
If customer and hosting provider has problems (also with pressure from outside on the hoster), The customer retains its domains ;-).
The domains are the most important, Webspace is replaceable.

So no hard statutory rules of ICANN or other registrars apply.
And everyone has to pay in advance. It is theoretically irrelevant to Dreamhost, if the identity of the customers are not correct.

But stores Dreamhost the PayPal email, used by his customer for a payment?
Is it DreamHost prohibited by law, to answer this question :-)?

What data do you store?
Also IPs? How long stores Dreamhost IPs?

By the way:
Is it illegal in California (or the whole usa) to write against the food industry?
I have heard (eg in public radio) strange things, that could or would be “terrorism”.
It is not allowed, to hurt the income of the food industry by negative propaganda?
For example, to tell which foods contain GMO.


#6

You’re asking a lot of very general questions here, and it’s really getting very hard for me to follow. I’m going to try to answer some of the questions that apply to us directly, but for many of your questions about US and California law, you’re going to need to consult a lawyer for a definitive answer. We’re simply not equipped to answer those questions on this forum.

DreamHost takes its responsibility to protect its customers’ privacy seriously, but for legal and fraud-prevention reasons, it is also important to us that we have valid and accurate contact information for all of our customers. Use of false contact information can result in the permanent disablement of your account, or of any domain registrations you have on it. If you’re concerned about how we may store or make use of this information, please refer to our privacy policy:

http://dreamhost.com/privacy-policy/

If you have a specific use for our services in mind that you’d like to run by us, please contact us with details at:

http://dreamhost.com/contact/

We can’t guarantee that we can give you a definite answer there either — you may need to get in touch with a lawyer for some legal concerns — but any answers will depend on the exact nature of what you’re proposing.


#7

OK, but this question(s) is also for normal users. Because they have some experience and knowledge about us right.
If a customer is in serious trouble, he will anyway lose the webspace. But not the domain (advantage of separate domain hosting).
If a customer use false contact informations, can he submit the correct contact information in a case of trouble, before he lose his webspace (not “very general” question :-] )?
He could decide whether it’s worth.
How is the correctness controlled? By real mail (eg with a “pin code”)? Comparison with the Residents’ Registration Office (in Russia, China, Germany …)? In countries like England, there is no reporting requirement.

Again (not “very general”, simple and DreamHost specific):
Are DreamHost store the PayPal email address, used by a customer for a single payment?
And how long store DreamHost Ips?


#8

Just FYI, if you’re asking a question, it helps to use a question mark at the end :slight_smile:

All of those can be answered as “Maybe.” and “It depends on the severity of the ‘crime’ and the full situation.”

If you typo your address, that’s false information but it’s okay. If you knowingly and intentionally lie to us about it, then that’s not okay.

Well… Yes. At the very least, if you send me money via paypal, I ALWAYS have a record of your email in paypal. Any information you enter to help us identify you is stored, and that would include you telling us what email via paypal you’re using. Same with your credit cards. And we retain old ones however long we’re legally required to do so. Again? Still not a lawyer. You can ask one, though.

You mean the IPs you use to log in and make changes to your account?


#9

In my last post, I do not can find a missing question mark.

I know “suspicious questions” :-D, but the overall picture is interesting. In addition, an interesting discussion.

OK, you (DreamHost) have a record of the Payment email.
But I can add and delete (also temporarily, also for minutes) every email for paypal payment in my paypal account.

I’m not obliged to use the email in the DreamHost customer data for a payment to Dreamhost (or?).
How long Dreamhost stores the email used for payment?

Dreamhost gets during a paypal deposit only the email, or full personal data, or a unique “customer ID”, or… (?) from PayPal?

Scenario:
I am the customer. Another person pays the bill with their own PayPal account.
Receives Dreamhost then the name of the payer, or just his email, or a unique ID etc.?

OK. I can really understand that.
But how verified DreamHost wrong customer data (@ other customers: Do you have experience?)?
I think Dreamhost has no practical possibility to check correct/false customer data.
This can happen only, if DreamHost sends a real paper control letter. Does Dreamhost this (@ other customers: Do you have experience?)?
Even if the customer data are incorrect, a letter can arrive (and even be answered).
Or the U.S. government approached the foreign government for help.
So only, if Dreamhost has given the contact information out.

Yes.


#10

Hi,

I’m guessing from your questions that you either ⓐ want to find out who is responsible for some objectionable material on DreamHost or ⓑ want to post some information anonymously which some people may find objectionable.

In the case of ⓐ, you will probably need to contact DreamHost directly with links to the material and references to specific American (USA) laws which you believe the material is violating. If it is indeed a violation, you have a chance of getting it taken down, but if you want to purse some sort of legal recourse, you will probably need to either report it to law enforcement (who won’t do anything unless it’s a criminal matter such as child porn) or a lawyer (in the case of material which is not criminally illegal like defamation).

In the case of ⓑ, DreamHost is pretty good about protecting your privacy as long as you are not breaking an American (USA) laws. You can offend a lot of people and make them mad as long as it’s protected speech. If you want even further protection, especially with borderline cases, you may want to look into other hosts which have a history of not caring at all about what the content is. I hear that nearlyfreespeech.com is in that category, although I have no experience with them.


#11

In my humble opinion, if somebody needs to ask these question …
well, maybe should not be here.

One of the last NeswLetter DH sent out, is that all the crappy people can have a website on DH
FREE SPEECH (sorry I don’t know the USA Amendment number - [I am Dutch] - but speak freely.
even Nazi-shit and anti-gay religion
YOU behave, no problem, FREE SPEACH


#12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States (It’s our 1st amendment)

Please contact us directly via the contact form or a support ticket if you have specific questions. If you’re trying to figure out who posted naughty content or if you WANT to host specific content here, you should ask us that way, so we can directly get you in touch with legal in a way that won’t make you look suspicious and will protect you.


#13

No, my intention is to find out whether an Admin would be in danger.

I am not looking for a expensive “special Hoster” to begin.
I do not want to make primary money with a website.
But with possible success of a website, it would be ok to earn some money (ads etc., not “accounts”), and perhaps switch to a more expensive hosting.

Objectives would be, for example, Criticism of the state.
If you describe your experience with civil servants in Germany with their name and department, you will be severely threatened.
The judiciary will pursue you and punish, even if you are telling the truth.

[quote]Criminal Code, Section 192:
“Insult Despite proof of truth”

Proof of truth of the asserted or disseminated fact Shall not exclude punishment under section 185 if the insult results from the form of the assertion or dissemination or the Circumstances under Which It made ​​what.[/quote]

If you have no evidence (mostly), then they punish you because:

[quote]Section 185
Insult

An insult shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine and, if the insult is committed by means of an assault, with imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine.[/quote]

[quote]Section 186
Defamation

Whosoever asserts or disseminates a fact related to another person which may defame him or negatively affect public opinion about him, shall, unless this fact can be proven to be true, be liable to imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine and, if the offence was committed publicly or through the dissemination of written materials (section 11(3)), to imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine.[/quote]

[quote]Section 187
Intentional defamation

Whosoever intentionally and knowingly asserts or disseminates an untrue fact related to another person, which may defame him or negatively affect public opinion about him or endanger his creditworthiness shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine, and, if the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of written materials (section 11(3)) to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine.[/quote]

Real example, If you publish the jobcenter telephone lists (direct call number a jobcenter clerk), you will be threatened with 500 criminal charges from one office.
One criminal charge per clerk. This is a juridical trick to destroy the person (here “Harald Thomé”) financially. This was the Jobcenter Spandau (Berlin).

“Phone lists from the job center should remain secret”:
http://translate.google.com/translate?act=url&depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.heise.de/tp/news/Telefonlisten-der-Jobcenter-sollen-geheim-bleiben-2102729.html

Previously:
The Administrative Court in Leipzig has a judgment of October, the 1. 2013 - decided 5K 981/11 (Press Releases and judgment text here), the Job Center after the federal Freedom of Information Act must give out internal phone lists and extensions for requests:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harald-thome.de%2Fjobcenter-telefonlisten.html&sandbox=1

He was right. The phone lists may view every citizen.
But he was still threatened by various job center. Legaly, but also anonymous by force. For example, he also received a threatening phone call!

Actually the German Pirate Party is now offering the phone lists for download.
As a political party, they are less likely to attack.


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If a customer does not use his real personal details, Dreamhost “must” officially reject this.
But DH could not disturb that too.
If the customer has no domain at DH, he does not risk losing the domain.

But it is important which information stores DH. For example, can a PayPal payment after weeks, months … be traced.
I read that Dreamhost think about BitCoin support…

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@ ronthai

I also asked in the “Rechtenforum.nl” (http://rechtenforum.nl/forum/thread/printertopic/1/t/41624/start/0/postdays/0/postorder/asc/vote/viewresult/?sid=fc8a51dd56bcc7e6ced5a07a4e928c16 ).
Unfortunately, I received not a good answer.
The Netherlands also appear as server location of interest.
Apparently no laws against insult, Defamation, Intentional Defamation etc. (see topic # 3).
Is that right?

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@ Ipstenu-DH

I had asked in detail previously.

Websites where citizens can report on public servants. In Germany very dangerous. You can be ruined, even end up in jail.
Even websites like Rottenneighbor.com, RateMyCop.com etc…

Here I also ask Americans regard to the law (topic # 3).
And Dreamhost which data is stored.


#14

You are asking questions that we cannot answer, with regard to foreign court orders and such. We cannot know how we would react to those until they are received and reviewed.

As for payment records, records of all payments made under an account here are stored as part of our business records, and this is necessary for us to do business and manage our accounting (and fraud investigations).

Specifically, payments made via Pay Pal do store the Pay Pal account email address, as that is how Pay Pal accounts are identified.

You can use as many different Pay Pal account as you wish; all are stored with your payment records.

If you elect to host material that is illegal in the jurisdiction where you reside, you do so at your own risk and you cannot rely upon us to provide you a shield for such activity, as international law is complicated and we cannot know how we may be compelled to respond in any future case.