Cutting off nose to spite face in wiki


#1

Another example of, in the wiki

Clearly independent, relevant and useful:

http://hacktux.com/bashprompt
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Bash-Prompt-HOWTO/ Bash Prompt HOWTO

Self-promotion, but also relevant and useful:
http://www.askapache.com/webmaster/custom-webmaster-shell-environment.html

Should be allowed.


#2

You have an extensive track record of self promotion on the DreamHost Wiki. It has been explained to you that method contributions should be in the form of wiki articles, and not in the form of external links. I explained this in detail on your wiki talk page, and described a method of ensuring proper attribution (if this is your goal), but you chose to ignore that.

You have already PMed me on this issue, and the other sysops and I are reviewing the temporary block. There was no need for you to make this public post, which only harms your case. Creating a sock puppet to post under probably wasn’t a good idea either.


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#3

You should judge wki links on their merits; not on who (you think) is doing what, or why. Your comments demonstrate you care more about the latter than the former.

You are mistaken to assume who made this post is who you are discouraging in the wiki.


#4

The username you are using was created today, just after I applied the temporary block. Am I supposed to believe this is just an extraordinary coincidence?


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#5

You needed another screen name for this whiny thread because… ?


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#6

Just so I am very clear, am I replying to Cduke250, askapache, wikidi, or “all of the above”?

Sock puppets do nothing to help your case, and only serve to make me more suspicious of your true motives. If you feel you are in the right, and want to be taken seriously by me (and many others) I suggest you drop the “noms de guerre” and engage in discussion from an initial position of integrity.

You have shown a complete lack of understanding of each of my (and others’) attempts to explain to you the difference between contributing and link-spamming in the wiki and, frankly, I’m getting a little tired of repeatedly trying to explain it to you.

On one hand, you seem to genuinely want to contribute useful material to the wiki, but your other hand keeps reaching up and grabbing you and dragging down into what seems to be a chronic obsession with link-spamming.

As this last post just evidences once again, when challenged on that, you completely ignore discussion (that you apparently do not want to hear about) trying to explain the problem and suggest alternative ways of handling your desire for promotion/attribution, and instead focus all your attention on arguing that you should be able to do it “your way” in spite of community standards or guidelines.

Add to that your penchant for throwing little online “tantrums”, and it is easy to understand why your motives are being interpreted the way they are. Your blog rant posts on being disqualified for the DHSOTM nod (which, oddly enough, was also all aboput lin-spamming), the prior threads on this forum (where finally DH staff chose to just close down the discussion), and now this thread, all indicate to me that it is more about self-promotion than it is about genuinely contributing.

The talk pages of the wiki, for the articles, your user, and the sysops, are much more appropriate places for this discussion unless you are trying to create a forum in which your sock puppets can “join the fight”.

Scjessey has said that the sysops will review your complaint(s) and the links in question yet again; I think that is more consideration than you deserve. I suggest we all take that discussion back to the wiki where it is more appropriate.

You posting it here, in the “Curious About Dreamhost” forum, after all the prior discussion on other threads and in the wiki, is just another example to me of your desire for “promotion” and/or “attention”. I’m thinking you truly just “do not get it” or just can’t help yourself.

–rlparker


#7

…uh, er…let me guess! The ones he previously used on the wiki and in the forums lost their credibility as a result of his action(s)?

–rlparker


#8

speaking of wiki’s, I noticed that the wikipedia article for dreamhost refers to our panel pretty negatively. It seems pretty silly to me to have people with different opinions calling each other biased. Its pretty funny that an article on a web hosting company would be so contentious!

Does wikipedia have the equivalent of an Ombudsman that could be asked to settle disputes? Should we have one on the dreamhost wiki? It does seem like better dispute resolution practices of some kind are needed.


#9

Yeah, that Wikipedia DreamHost article was involved in fairly intense, though short-lived, reversion/edit war a little while ago. On the whole, I think it is more objective and fair now than it was. The diffs and the Talk page of that article are an enlightening read.

Granted, the reference to the panel in the current revision is not real positive (but it is properly cited according to Wikipedia standards). Possibly, a more complete or thorough statement from DreamhHost about the “June Gloom” would provide a better cite, and allow the article to read a little more positively. :wink:

Wikipedia has a very mature, and somewhat involved, dispute resolution process that includes both mediation and arbitration components, and it is used quite a lot, though the overwhelming majority of disputes are resolved without going that far (by using the other methods described in the dispute resolution process link previously provided).

That might be a great thing to implement! I know both scjessey and I would like to see that in place. As it is, we are kinda left to our own best efforts with that and I , for one, do not enjoy it at all. I’m for anything that introduces or encourages balance, objectivity, and quality on the DreamHost wiki! :slight_smile:

I’m not at all sure that it would be appropriate for the DreamHost wiki’s dispute resolution process to precisely mirror that of Wikipedia - they are very different beasts, with different objectives, and audiences, but I’m all for some additional resolution process.

–rlparker


#10

Can’t we just make this guy go away?

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#11

WTF!? I just received an email that led me to this discussion…

[quote]Google Blogs Alert for: link:http://www.askapache.com
Cutting off nose to spite face in wiki
By wikidi
Post Reply? Another example of, in the wiki Clearly independent, relevant and useful: http://hacktux.com/bashprompt http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Bash-Prompt-HOWTO/ Bash Prompt HOWTO Self-promotion, but also relevant and useful[/quote]

Frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if it was scjessy or rlparker who posed as the wikid user just so that they could preempt my complaint (i totally agree with wikid, minus the promotion) Its rather coincidental that within an hour of me sending a PM to scjessy to try and resolve this amicably in private, that this suddenly appears on the forum. But I hope wikid is one of the many DHers who keep encouraging me and thanking me for my DH specific posts, Thanks for all the love out there!

Just to show you crazies out there where I am coming from, and to try to stop this massive campaign to label me as some kind of spammer or promoter or something (yes I admit posting a promotional tip in the PROMOTION forum), here is the PM I sent to scjessy earlier today, upon learning that my wiki account was temporarily banned for vandalism (persistent link spamming)

[quote]I’m sorry that we are not understanding each other, this is such a waste of time for both of us and DreamHost customers are complaining about my helpful links being taken off the wiki.

I really think there is a huge misunderstanding going on due to some negative perceptions… I am not trying to promote my site in any way when I contribute to the DreamHost wiki. Let me explain the latest “link spam” article “Custom Webmaster Shell Environment” and how that came about and ended up on the wiki.

I use ssh to admin my DH accounts daily, and so I took the time and effort to research and create my own Shell Environment specifically for my DH ssh. Then yesterday I had to give one of my clients web developers ssh access and I created a new shell account for them. The difference between my shell account and the default was shocking and prompted me to write a blog post with screenshots of those differences and to explain in an easy way how any DH user can easily setup their shell account in the same way.

Then today I was looking up some info on the DH wiki (I am reading stuff on the wiki almost every day) and a search turned up the page “Environment Setup” which is soley about customizing the shell when using ssh on dreamhost. So I thought, ok, I’ll help out all the DH’s that are smart enough to read the wiki and post a link to my article, which couldn’t be MORE relevant to the article subject. I also added the 2 best links in addition to my own for users to learn even more about bash environments. That is why every wiki has external links sections.

So I could tell pretty much that exact story for about half of my contributions on the wiki, I am in no way trying to spam and I really can’t understand where you and rlparker are coming from since you never explain specifically how my links are bad.

I hope this highlights where the misunderstanding is occuring, my motives are 100% ethical and right in that I am only EVER contributing to the wiki to help fellow dreamhosters, I enjoy receiving all the positive feedback from thankful DH’s and I’m glad I’m helping to make the web a better place (and I take special joy in the fact that I am only sharing knowledge and help about open-source and linux/bsd/unix/debian)…

I don’t want to argue about this anymore but I realize its hard for people to admit they might have made a mistake and move forward positively, I hope you can experience a paradigm shift in your view of my contributions, I am in no way interested in promoting my site for any reasons other than to freely help fellow DHers and contribute to the open-source movement.

Please unblock me and lets start over with a clean slate, I liked the advice you wrote on my talk page about duplicating content from my blog to the wiki, and that is why their is talk pages, reverts, history, etc… so that we can contribute together and always move forward for the good of everyone.

Let me know what you think.

The block was made by Scjessey. The reason given is Persistant link spamming.

Vandalism is defined as intentionally making non-constructive edits of any kind.

Spam Continuing to add external links to non-notable or irrelevant sites (e.g. to advertise one’s website) to pages after having been warned is vandalism.

Links to be avoided

Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject one should avoid:

  1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource.
  2. Any site that delivers or contains illegal or objectionable content.
  3. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material.
  4. Links mainly intended to promote a website.
  5. Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services.
  6. Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising.
  7. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content.
  8. Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that only work with a specific browser.
  9. Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media. If you do link to such material make a note of what application is required.
  10. Links to search engine and aggregated results pages.
  11. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace) or discussion forums.
  12. Sites that are only indirectly related to the article’s subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article.[/quote]
    Why don’t you people sitting there accusing me of all this immature nonsense go talk to one of the MANY DreamHost staff who I have dealt with in the past and really valued their knowledge and friendliness… They all actually have a clue about unix and security and have them check out the LOGS for the wikid user, then you can atleast know something before you randomly start accusing DreamHost Customers of this… Blatant malice from actual DH staff is appalling and I hope you guys take my PM to heart and stop throwing gas on the flame.

wikid somehow prove you aren’t me.

Quite honestly you don’t want me to try to make this issue public, because I go all out. And I have no problem with DreamHost, I recommend it to all my web developer friends, clients, and everyone and anyone who asks! I love DH but seriously stop hating on me its a tiny traffic wiki for goodness sake and my intentions are purely to help fellow dreamhost customers reading the wiki… I don’t use this forum because these flame threads are so pointless and besides whats the point of me trying to participate in a forum where 2 posters with so much popularity condemn me even when I don’t post anything? Wikid may have been right to post this in the forum for potential customers… this just isn’t right.

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#12

Would you guys take this offline or at least to another forum. This post is clearly inappropriate for “Curious About DreamHost”.

BTW, I don’t care who wikid is. New face or alter-ego, they’ve mis-posted in what seems to me to clear disregard of board courtesy.

Spillover, by the way, is a sign of obsessive behavior.

Hey, in an attempt to stop the madness, I’ve created this new thread. I hope everyone can try to move their discussions there. Feel free to quote from this thread liberally to facilitate the transition. If this doesn’t work, I apologize beforehand for messing up the readability of this woebegon thread.

[b]Here is a link to the new thread.


#13

[quote]Spillover, by the way, is a sign of obsessive behavior.

[/quote]

Not that it matters, but excess concern with categorization might be too. :wink:


#14

okay … so what I got out of that is that you say wikid is not one of your sock puppets. I guess that answers the first question of my post. DreamHost readers are intelligent - they can sort this stuff out on their own. :wink:

There is no “campaign” to label you in any particular way. Your actions, your posts, your wiki entries, and your website have spoken, and continue to speak, for themselves.

You are clearly losing it now, and you should see somebody about getting some help for what appears to be a bit of runaway paranoia and a developing persecution complex. :wink:

You public posting of your PM to scjessey is merely a rehash of significant previous discussion regarding your inability, or unwillingness, to characterize what you do as self-promoting link-spam. It’s now an old tired discussion.

The sad part is that, because of your position on all of this and your “yelling in a hotel lobby” manner of dealing with it, scjessey probably does, and to some degree I also do, look at links you post to your site in a particularly critical way. That’s somewhat natural given your past behavior (which you likely will never recognize as being inappropriate).

My understanding is that you have very positive relations with “actual DreamHost staff”, and I am not at all aware of any “blatant malice” on their part (or on mine, for that matter). As for throwing “gas on the flame”, it seems to me that you are doing exactly that with this post.

I’m truly sorry that you would rather see this as a contentious imbroglio than the simple attempt to resolve the issue, but I can’t be responsible for how you choose to read what is written.

I, and I’m sure others who have followed this discussion across the wiki and in previous forum threads, or your blog, are quite aware of your propensity to “try to take this issue public” (how could they not!).

It’s really too bad that you can only see the issue as one of people “hating on” you. I don’t hate you at all; Hell, I don’t even know you!

You can complain all you want about “two posters” condemning you , but that won’t change the fact that my comments were in direct response to your actions. Anyone who is interested in that has plenty of reference material (as noted above) to research it for themselves and form their own opinion.

Oh, and as for the “I didn’t post anything” - fine…anything you say. If wikid is not one of your puppets, I apologize to him for believing that he was (but I reserve the right, in light of all the evidence, to continue to believe wikid is a puppet, be it a puppet of the “meat” or “sock” variety).

When you spend as much time in a public forum, or a given wiki, as I have spent in both the DH Forums and the DH wiki, you get a very good feel as to its “ebb” and “flow” - wikid’s appearance, and the timing of that appearance, in the totality of the circumstances, make his function and purpose crystal clear. :wink:

So okay, you didn’t post at all, but now your whole messy linkspam issue is now “out the open” again so you can fuel it with your righteous indignation. I suppose, from having read your wiki comments ("… to be continued"), all that is to be expected. I however, am going to take my cue from the way the last threads discussing all this ended, with a DH staffer just closing the threads, and just “opt out”. If you really want all this to be resolved, you can always elect to do the same, just as you can continue to elicit responses in this thread, some possibly even from me … how you handle that is completely up to you.

It’s a shame really, that you got involved in all of this because, as Josh pointed out in the Newsletter, you are a bright guy and there is some useful and clever stuff on your site. :slight_smile:

–rlparker


#15

[quote]It’s a shame really, that you got involved in all of this because, as Josh pointed out in the Newsletter, you are a bright guy and there is some useful and clever stuff on your site.

–rlparker[/quote]
Ya that whole DHSOTM Experiment that I did really pissed 1 or 2 people off, and they just haven’t let it go… At least Josh was able to rise above the pettiness, he’s one awesome guy. Keep in mind my site is like a huge advertisement for DreamHost in many many ways, and the traffic I drive to DH is CONSIDERABLE and I do that ON PURPOSE, and yet unlike many of you with your promotional codes all over the place, I haven’t made a single penny off of DH referrals. I’m helping DH so much because real recognize real and it’s obvious to me that DH has the best hosting environment and support staff on the planet (plus I want my people running things, not microsoft and corporations)… I am all about unix and apache and the whole open-source movement, I’m all about keeping things free especially when it comes to knowledge. Power to the people, DH embodies this in a lot of ways.

Thats exactly how I feel and I guess why I am so confused and a little upset over this whole thing… I just don’t understand how you could have such an unheard of negative view of my contributions, it makes me suspect that you either don’t know much at all about Web Development or you simply made up your opinion without ever looking at my actions, my posts, my wiki entries, or my website.

Even though 99% of people appreciate my help and thank me for contributing almost daily, THEY aren’t the people with the power to shut me down.

For DHSOTM my site got majorly positive comments, nearly 100%, and real high votes… the highest! But apparently the voters and votes don’t mean jack, its the 1 or 2 people with the power that were able to get my site disqualified with no proof of wrongdoing, they just didn’t like it or maybe they jumped to conclusions… They had the power to get me DQ’d from DHSOTM, erase most of my wiki contributions, publically label my motives and my site/contributions in a really negative way on both the wiki and then the forums (they’ve been here forever, I have wat 10 posts?) and after my site and reputation was dragged through the mud… those same people got my forum discussions LOCKED, and now I have been BANNED from the wiki… So ya I regret getting involved with 1 or 2 people, but not anything else, its all love when it comes to DreamHost and me. kiss

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#16

Implicit was a request for other opinions on: are the links relevant and useful, as I believe, or should they be deleted? Obviously, jessey and parker prefer to guess about personalities and motives, rather than address the facts. It’s a little like “mandatory sentences” - if they can say it’s “link spam” then they don’t have to use judgment.


#17

askapache is as reasonable to be paranoid about you and jessey using socks as jessey is to suspect “extraordinary coincidence.”

I know neither is accurate. I also observe you discussing those peripheral issues rather than whether the links are relevant and useful to the article.


#18

Really? Then you could have saved yourself some time with a plain text link to Dreamhost.

Speaking of promo codes, what’s that big ol’ “HTACCESSLITE” in your redirect link? Almost looks like one of those promo codes that people that aren’t you throw around.

I guess you send them tons of traffic from people that like typing URLs out instead of clicking links.

#1 Server Response: http://www.askapache.com/dream/
HTTP Status Code: HTTP/1.1 302
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:51:53 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.54 (Unix) PHP/4.4.7 mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7e mod_fastcgi/2.4.2 DAV/2 SVN/1.4.2
Referer: http://www.dreamhost.com/redir.cgi?ad=rewards|211825&promo=HTACCESSELITE
Refresh: 0; URL=http://www.dreamhost.com/redir.cgi?ad=rewards|211825&url=signup?plan=3&promo=HTACCESSELITE
Location: http://www.dreamhost.com/redir.cgi?ad=rewards|211825&url=signup?plan=3&promo=HTACCESSELITE
Vary: Accept-Encoding
Content-Length: 0
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Redirect Target: http://www.dreamhost.com/redir.cgi?ad=rewards|211825&url=signup?plan=3&promo=HTACCESSELITE

#2 Server Response: http://www.dreamhost.com/redir.cgi?ad=rewards|211825&url=signup?plan=3&promo=HTACCESSELITE
HTTP Status Code: HTTP/1.1 302 Moved
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:51:53 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.37 (Unix) mod_throttle/3.1.2 DAV/1.0.3 mod_fastcgi/2.4.2 mod_gzip/1.3.26.1a PHP/4.4.7 mod_ssl/2.8.22 OpenSSL/0.9.7e
Set-Cookie: referred=rewards|211825; domain=.dreamhost.com; path=/; expires=Sat, 10-Jul-2010 02:51:55 GMT
Set-Cookie: promo=HTACCESSELITE; domain=.dreamhost.com; path=/; expires=Sat, 10-Jul-2010 02:51:55 GMT
Location: http://www.dreamhost.com/signup?plan=3
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/plain
Redirect Target: http://www.dreamhost.com/signup?plan=3

#3 Server Response: http://www.dreamhost.com/signup?plan=3
HTTP Status Code: HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:51:55 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.37 (Unix) mod_throttle/3.1.2 DAV/1.0.3 mod_fastcgi/2.4.2 mod_gzip/1.3.26.1a PHP/4.4.7 mod_ssl/2.8.22 OpenSSL/0.9.7e
Location: https://dreamhost.com/signup/?plan=3
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Redirect Target: https://dreamhost.com/signup/?plan=3


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#19

[quote]Its pretty funny that an article on a web hosting company would be so contentious!

[/quote]

Yes and no. There are DreamHost “apologists” who solicit support, and even a “Michael DreamHost” participating previously. Can you say appearance of conflict of interest? It doesn’t really matter, but are you sure Jessey and Tobias aren’t on the payroll, or get a stipend or some incentives?

[quote]Does wikipedia have the equivalent of an Ombudsman that could be asked to settle disputes? Should we have one on the dreamhost wiki? It does seem like better dispute resolution practices of some kind are needed.

[/quote]

Anything has to be better than jessey continuing to dominate and “have his way” with the wiki. I think he does his best and has good intentions (from his perspective)… but I had hoped parker and the other customer-admin (where did he go after promising “massive reorganization”?) would bring some balance … Unfortunately, from my perspective, they are of “one mind.” At least employees would be clearly authorized to put forth the official DreamHost line.


#20

[quote]
Thats exactly how I feel and I guess why I am so confused and a little upset over this whole thing… I just don’t understand how you could have such an unheard of negative view of my contributions, it makes me suspect that you either don’t know much at all about Web Development or you simply made up your opinion without ever looking at my actions, my posts, my wiki entries, or my website.[/quote]
There isn’t anything wrong with your contributions - it’s that if you’re going to make a wiki article, it needs to have CONTENT, and not a link to your own wiki page saying “read more here”, which you’ve already done a few times in the past.
From my own perspective, I find adding links to my own site in the wiki (minus my userpage of course) to be extremely spam-ish in the sense that I’m essentially attempting to advertise my site and services. I’ve currently started to work on a wiki in fact, that will contain all of my install scripts and such that I use - which would not be too dissimilar from your site (other than the fact its a wiki of course). The difference between us however, is that I have no plans to, nor would I ever personally, add a link to my wiki or site on the DreamHost wiki, even if I felt the reference was valid.

Anyways, my point is, just because you felt it was okay, doesn’t make it okay. If you have concerns or issues about this whole fiasco, I don’t understand why you don’t take up the issues with DreamHost staff themselves. I was almost positive you’d said previously that you’d done so - but here we are again… and your posts here are getting no one anywhere (your wiki alter-ego included). If staff stays they won’t do anything, then clearly they’re siding with the wiki Sysops. In fact, I can’t imagine why DreamHost would make Scjessey and rlparker Sysops without respecting their decisions and opinions. If you can’t respect the Sysops and their opinions, then you don’t respect DreamHost. It’s really as simple as that. I really wish you’d just stop with the ranting and raving about something that’s already over and done with. You were wrong in the eyes of DreamHost and several other people, and that’s all there is to it.


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