Cold Fusion

software development

#1

What are the chances of getting ColdFusion installed in the near future? I know there’s a grassroots movement started to get people to vote for it:
http://www.adamfortuna.com/2007/03/29/recommend-coldfusion-for-dreamhost/

ColdFusion can do so many things so easily, it’d be a great addition to DreamHost.

The voting page shows the cost to vote but not how many votes have been placed. Is ColdFusion getting many votes? What’s the best way to get the word out to DreamHost customers to encourage them to vote for it?


#2

I’m quite familiar with ColdFusion, and I think it is awful. The biggest problem it faces is that the ColdFusion Application Server is expensive, so I think the chances of it being available on DreamHost are close to zero. Although free versions exist, they are stripped of many of the features that makes ColdFusion any good.


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#3

Cold Fusion is actually pretty good for web publishing.
CF is great for taking complex queries and either displaying them to a browser, or exporting them to an excel spreadsheet.


#4

Others have felt the same way about earlier versions of CF, but changed their minds after learning about MX. You might change your opinion after reading this article:

The cost for ColdFusion Application Server to run multiple websites is $6000. If that’s too pricey for DreamHost, the FREE BlueDragon version would probably be sufficient:
http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/bluedragon_basics.cfm

I suggest a good compromise would be to get the free BlueDragon version.


#5

I have a fair bit of experience with ColdFusion (as I mentioned earlier), and this experience began with MX. I use it with legacy work, and stuff I work on that has been built by others. It is easy to develop rapidly with CFML (perhaps its best feature), but in most respects I would call the language “immature”. Definitely not for any serious application development.


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#6

CFML is immature? Think again.

The language has been around since 1995 making it as old or older than PHP depending on your version of history. It’s a well-honed piece of technology and includes image manipulation functions, .Net integration, built-in server monitoring, Flash forms, heavy Flex integration, OO/CFCs and is built on top of Java, for starters.

As for not being usable for “serious application development” tell that to the many thousands of intranet and public app developers who use it everyday. For some live examples, head to http://www.forta.com/blog/index.cfm/UsingCF.

C’mon Dreamhost, support ColdFusion!


#7

This has my vote! (that’s also my post :).

ColdFusion hosts are few and far between. Having it on a host with as much reach as Dreamhost would be awesome. That’s not to say there aren’t many CF hosts, but due to what you have to do to host CF it’s usually more trouble than most hosts can handle. With ColdFusion 8 though, it may just be an option now that there is increased support for multiple users. Media-Template is already gearing up for ColdFusion Grid servers, maybe they know something Dreamhost doesn’t.

The biggest factors against it are always the same though – price, administration and support. CF only has official linux support for redhat and (i think) ubuntu now (along with windows and some others).

I’d love to see how many people have voted for this as well. I imagine over the years since it was requested there’s been a ton, I just wonder how many are still customers.


#8

I don’t mean “young”. I mean that compared to other languages, it is nothing more than an adolescent - particularly with respect to OOP. I’ve got several books from Ben Forta, who is pretty much the only ColdFusionista I know of, and I’m well aware of his work. And who cares if it has .NET support? We are in an open source world now.


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#9

Age doesn’t make something “mature”; continual and progressive development does.

Scjessy is right on the money…at lot of younger FOSS software is much more mature. Irrespective of it’s perceived virtue’s, CF’s proprietary business module makes it a potential dead end - you are running up against just one instance of that here: You want to run your proprietary code on a platform that doesn’t support it and, in order to support it, a significant investment must be made in code you don’t have “freedom” to use, modify, or re-distribute as you like.

There are hosts that have CF available, but I see no reason for DH to support it…I see it as another potential “FrontPage” foo scenario (though in all fairness, nothing has quite the “suckage” factor that FrontPage does/did).

–rlparker


#10

I’m all for open source but please don’t make such an unsubstantiated claim like, “we’re in an open source world” now.

Based on what exactly? Give me the business facts, the real numbers.


#11

Hmmm, continuous development. Like this?

1995 Allaire Cold Fusion version 1.0
1996 Allaire Cold Fusion version 1.5
1997, Allaire Cold Fusion version 3.0
1998, Allaire Cold Fusion version 3.1
1998, Allaire ColdFusion version 4.0
1999, Allaire ColdFusion version 4.5
2001, Macromedia ColdFusion version 5.0
2002, Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0
2003, Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.1
2005, Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7
2007, Adobe ColdFusion 8

Sounds pretty regular to me.


#12

Could you shed some light on your criteria for deciding whether requests are implemented? Does it matter at all how many people vote for it?


#13

There are a lot of places that would disagree with you on that.
Here are a few, and there are many more:


#14

Your point is well made, and I have taken note! :slight_smile:

There have been plenty of “upgrades” or “new versions” to be sure, as is very often seen as a necessary part of a proprietary software business model and, as such, not necessarily real evidence of a “maturing” product.

After all, revenue must continue to be created, and there is only so much growth potential available. It may well be a sign of true maturity, but can also be a sign of constantly changing direction and planned obsolescence of “older” technology to drive “upgrade” revenue. How you view all of that, and the particulars of CF, is very much a matter of personal perception, taste, and needs.

All that said, CF is still proprietary and, as such, has been totally defendant upon first Allaire, then Macromedia, and now Adobe.

At any time Adobe could either discontinue the product, reposition it dramatically, release yet another “new and improved” version (that may, or may not, necessitate an upgrading of server support), or sell it to another who could do any/all of the same. What a disaster it would be if DreamHost’s business model suddenly found itself at odds with the direction a proprietary product, to which they have “hitched their wagon”, decides to take.

Part of what makes DreamHost such a great value is them not having to wrestle with rolling “upgrades” of proprietary software and their ability to tweak and tune code as needed to meet their needs.

I don’t see this discussion so much as a “pro-CF” vs “Anti-CF” argument from the users’ perspective - different people like different things. I just hate to see DreamHost embark upon such a path, as it would drain resources (money, people, and time) from providing basic and essential hosting services. I also wonder where it would stop? Next thing you know, folks are clamoring for .ASP support, etc.

All those technologies have their place, and there are plenty of hosts out there for those that want to use them. As it is, DreamHost is a rare “clean well-lighted place” that provides a unique value - I think their commitment to FOSS software and the general rejection of proprietary technologies is part of that, and part of what allows them to provide the value I enjoy.

People that want CF should definitely use it, even vote for it to be implemented on DreamHost if they don’t want to use a CF host, but those of us that don’t feel it is a “Good Thing” ™ also should definitely let our opinions be known. :wink:

–rlparker


#15

Mike, I can’t really give any authoritative answer to that question as I am just a customer here like almost everyone else. :wink:

This is primarily a "customer-to-customer" forum and, while DreamHost staff do occasionally drop by, they rarely post here. Their post can be identified with a little yellow “flag” next to their user name.

What they have said in the past, and part of which I believe they have indicated on the “Suggestions” page, is that they take into consideration the demand a feature evidences (number of people requesting it), the difficulty and cost of implementing it, the relative importance of the suggested change compared with other changes “in the queue”, and the overall compatibility with their business model.

It seems they really want to be “responsive”, but they move slowly and deliberately. Over the period of time I have been here (almost 9 years now), they have made many changes, but seem to follow the “Debian” way of slow and stable rather than fast and furious when it comes to even minor changes. :wink:

–rlparker


#16

Based on the fact that, “We” are hosting at Dreamhost and, with the notable exception of limited Quicktime support, almost all DreamHost’s hosting technologies are based on FOSS software.

“We’” who are hosting on DreamHost are, for hosting at least, “in an open source world” - and that’s a “business fact” that has been a major consideration in DreamHost’s creation, development, and growth.

DreamHost’s considered refusal to offer Windows based hosting over the years was certianly not driven by their perceived inability to sell Windows hosting services. :wink:

–rlparker


#17

If FOSS is what’s so important, then BlueDragon (used by MySpace) is a solid CFML option. http://www.newatlanta.com/c/products/bluedragon/download/home


#18

Hey, people can argue back and forth as much as they want, but just put the suggestion in on the control panel and let people vote with their suggestion credits.

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#19

I think lensman’s answer is a really good one, just put it in the suggestion system and see what happens! :wink:

According to the BlueDragon Software License Agreement, it’s product are nowhere near being FOSS in any way. It is not Adobe, but it is not “free” in either the “free as in freedom” or the “free beer” sense.

I’m not trying to say that only FOSS has value; I’m only saying using non-FOSS code greatly complicates DreamHost’s business model. :wink:

–rlparker


#20

Yeah, I could see it being difficult for DreamHost to use it given this term in the license:

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